Player Discussion Event: Defending in DoA

[Christina Kabam]

[SIZE=3]UPDATE: The discussion event is over! Thanks to everyone who participated for giving us their feedback![/SIZE]


Dear Citizens,

Combat is a part of all of our lives in Atlantis, whether against the Anthropus or fellow players. It’s a lot of fun and a huge part of the game to go on the march and attack other player-controlled or computer-controlled forces. The less glamorous part of combat is something that is often fiercely debated on these forums: defending. Since troops in your cities can be set to hide or defend through the Wall, the question of whether or not to actually defend when being attacked is a significant one.

The release of the Wraith Dragon has brought up the question of defending vs. hiding anew, and we at Atlantean headquarters are interested in the way all of you think about defending - when you do it, why you do it, and how the Wraith Dragon has changed the mechanic for you (if at all). So, we’re having this moderated discussion today to see what everyone thinks, and we encourage you all to participate so that the DoA team can get the most complete picture possible of defending in the game.


[SIZE=4]Questions We Want To Hear Your Answer To:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]- In which cases would you defend against an attack? Why?
- In which cases would you hide your troops and not defend? Why?
- Is defending (or not defending) against the Wraith Dragon different from normal defending? Why?[/SIZE]


Discuss away! Don’t forget the rules, though!


[SIZE=3]Rules[/SIZE]
- Stay on topic. Posts that attempt to derail the conversation may be edited or deleted. Bug reports belong in the Bugs & Known Issues forum.
- Be constructive. Posts that express an opinion without actually contributing to the conversation may be edited or deleted, particularly if they are inflammatory.
- Be courteous. Posts that troll, flame, or otherwise demonstrate rude or overly provocative behavior may be edited or deleted.



~The Dragons of Atlantis Team~

[roy7roy]

I will defend any attack that I can beat and not lose too many troops. Also, the wraith has made it harder to defend but with superior tactics such as a well used Cease Fire item I am able to defend and then they are unable to speed attack with the Wraith dragon. The main change is that now just need to use a CF item to defend an attack. I will never intentionally defend a wraith attack because you don't do anything to the dragon, as of right now he has to be resummoned even if he is not defended against.

Dear Citizens,

Combat is a part of all of our lives in Atlantis, whether against the Anthropus or fellow players. It’s a lot of fun and a huge part of the game to go on the march and attack other player-controlled or computer-controlled forces. The less glamorous part of combat is something that is often fiercely debated on these forums: defending. Since troops in your cities can be set to hide or defend through the Wall, the question of whether or not to actually defend when being attacked is a significant one.

The release of the Wraith Dragon has brought up the question of defending vs. hiding anew, and we at Atlantean headquarters are interested in the way all of you think about defending - when you do it, why you do it, and how the Wraith Dragon has changed the mechanic for you (if at all). So, we’re having this moderated discussion today to see what everyone thinks, and we encourage you all to participate so that the DoA team can get the most complete picture possible of defending in the game.


[SIZE=4]Questions We Want To Hear Your Answer To:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]- In which cases would you defend against an attack? Why?
- In which cases would you hide your troops and not defend? Why?
- Is defending (or not defending) against the Wraith Dragon different from normal defending? Why?[/SIZE]


Discuss away! Don’t forget the rules, though!


[SIZE=3]Rules[/SIZE]
- Stay on topic. Posts that attempt to derail the conversation may be edited or deleted. Bug reports belong in the Bugs & Known Issues forum.
- Be constructive. Posts that express an opinion without actually contributing to the conversation may be edited or deleted, particularly if they are inflammatory.
- Be courteous. Posts that troll, flame, or otherwise demonstrate rude or overly provocative behavior may be edited or deleted.



~The Dragons of Atlantis Team~

[Yoleinya]

I defend against attacks which I believe I can defeat without costing me more than what they will lose. I don't defend against an attack which is too "stupid" for the player who is attacking me, seeing it as bait. I don't defend against attacks if I don't have the time to do a selective defense catered to what is coming. This is because, if they speed in with something I didn't see coming, and outplay me, I like to still not have lost all my troops.

Defending against the Wraith Dragon successfully was a lot faster to figure out than the lava/ogre/bumps attack, and it isn't that different from normal defending. The difference is that it is one troop, so all the defensive units will be targeting just that troop, so the way I usually think about defenders and how they act is different than what will happen here, but that is actually an advantage for the defense. The issue with it is that there is no benefit for defending against the wraith dragon. It is the type of troop someone is going to have to trick you into defending, because there is just no gain. Better to let it through, and they get some resos, which are easy to get, but still can't use it until they are able to summon it again.

I will never willingly defend a wraith dragon. More now than before, I am reinforcing people with just what is needed to beat what is coming and even then I have changed up what I would send so that not only will it beat what is coming, but would take minimal losses to the wraith as well, and then I have the defender stay off the wall.

It would be great if there was some benefit for the defender to defend against the dragon. I have seen suggestions posted that say the defender should get the million blue energy if they successfully defended the wraith. I like that idea.

[roy7roy]

I like the idea of getting something for beating the wraith, but how about an item that might be seen as more useful, such as seals or just a number of rubies like 30 rubies for each time to give incentive to defend the wraith. The blue energy seems to be easy enough to get if you just build up your stones and do the research, all lvl 9 stones and lvl 10 energy collection gives 13.6k per hour.

I defend against attacks which I believe I can defeat without costing me more than what they will lose. I don't defend against an attack which is too "stupid" for the player who is attacking me, seeing it as bait. I don't defend against attacks if I don't have the time to do a selective defense catered to what is coming. This is because, if they speed in with something I didn't see coming, and outplay me, I like to still not have lost all my troops.

Defending against the Wraith Dragon successfully was a lot faster to figure out than the lava/ogre/bumps attack, and it isn't that different from normal defending. The difference is that it is one troop, so all the defensive units will be targeting just that troop, so the way I usually think about defenders and how they act is different than what will happen here, but that is actually an advantage for the defense. The issue with it is that there is no benefit for defending against the wraith dragon. It is the type of troop someone is going to have to trick you into defending, because there is just no gain. Better to let it through, and they get some resos, which are easy to get, but still can't use it until they are able to summon it again.

I will never willingly defend a wraith dragon. More now than before, I am reinforcing people with just what is needed to beat what is coming and even then I have changed up what I would send so that not only will it beat what is coming, but would take minimal losses to the wraith as well, and then I have the defender stay off the wall.

It would be great if there was some benefit for the defender to defend against the dragon. I have seen suggestions posted that say the defender should get the million blue energy if they successfully defended the wraith. I like that idea.

[Yoleinya]

I could definitely agree with a useful item, but it would have to be something you can get over and over without putting Kabam outta business. There would be a ton of abuse, for example, friends in different alliances or alternate accounts hitting you and defending with say 1 ssd just to get the 30 rubies. If they gave rubies for defending the wraith, people would be in wc 24/7 giving out their own coords begging people to hit them with the 1 troop reinforcing them so they could get 30 rubies everytime someone does.

Another thought I just had regarding defending, is that even those who really pay attention to mechs agree, that the effects the wall has in combat and the way the defense stat functions is rather grey. I realize that we need to figure out some things through trial and error and that Kabam isn't just going to give out the formulas for combat so people can use simulators to predict every battle and never fight at all because when the simulator says u will definitely win theirs will say they will definitely lose and they won't defend, but it would be great to have like some kind of hint? Some short descriptions of the stats somewhere (like the research descriptions or troop descriptions) which may give us a better jumping off point for our investigation into defense.

Another another thought is that people don't defend a lot because there is so much uncertainty in it. I think for a lot of us, the uncertainty is part of the thrill of the battle, but for many, it is okay to take a "risk" when it is extremely slight and in actuality never really happens. People want to win but they don't want to lose, but they want someone to lose, because for you to win, someone else is losing in PvP. It is all fine and well as long as you are not the loser, and when you worry about being the one on the recieving end of it, then suddenly it's, "Wait a minute, this attack is way too difficult to defend. This war stuff is serious. Troops could die!" I like the risk factor. If it isn't risky enough it can become boring; the same little skirmishes, 5k power here and 10k there, and no one really loses anything, but then... no one ever wins either.

So, the real challenge I guess, is how to get people to defend on a regular basis without taking away all element of risk? I mean there will always be pepole who are very cautious and people who are very big risk takers, but it seems that there definitely is a lack of defending going on, by what many have said; and I have to admit it can be like pulling teeth getting people to wall up at times.

[roy7roy]

I was meaning you don't only defend the Wraith but must also beat the wraith attack. This would be much tougher and cost the defender some troops. Ya the seals would put Kabam out of business if they get that easy to get but possibly just a jump or leap or a few mass nullifiers since they are a cheap item anyway.

[Chainsaw]

- In which cases would you defend against an attack? Why?
I'll defend against an attack if I have a pretty good idea that I will be able to defeat the incoming force with minimal to no losses.

- In which cases would you hide your troops and not defend? Why?
Well for most everyone but the few top tiered players on a realm the default is definitely to hide your troops and only try to defend if you know whats coming. I wouldn't want to leave them walled and wake up to my whole army slaughtered. If I see an attack coming in that I know will overwhelm my army I'm definitely going to stay hidden as I'd rather lose the res than lose weeks worth of build time for new troops. Like Yoleinya said, i'll also check to see if the attacking force is proportional to the attackers strength. If it's not then they are most likely trying to bait my troops out onto the wall so they can speed in their big guns.

- Is defending (or not defending) against the Wraith Dragon different from normal defending? Why?
I personally would never opt to defend against it. Especially since I don't have anywhere near the amount of troops that I would need to defend against it with minimal losses at the moment. Also, there is 0 loss to the attacker (besides the blue energy and talismans) while the defender could potentially lose weeks worth of troops. I think that the only way to get people to defend against the wraith dragon is by baiting them out and speeding it in.

Since there is 0 reward to defending against the wraith dragon I think it just comes down to a matter of pride. The only benefit is the pride in saying that you thwarted a wraith dragon attack and hoping that your casualties weren't that high. If nothing else, you could add some sort of counter by a cities name that showed how many times it has defeated a wraith lol. I'm not sure what kind of reward could be put in place. I don't think that any type of item or ruby reward is warranted because that could be abused by just having your friends attack each other (if they knew they could successfully defend with no losses) in order to get the prizes. The winner receiving the 1 mil blue energy seems like it might be an ok reward though. Or maybe you could receive half the energy and half the talismans. Though these systems could also lead to team members transfering wraith attacks. For instance, if I had a lvl 10 wraith and my team mates only had lvl 8 wraith's my wraith would be more effective. So if we wanted to get the most bang for the buck and I could defend agains their wraith dragons, they would attack me, I would take 0 losses and now have 1mil blue energy. Then I would go and attack someone else because my wraith would do twice the damage and carry three times the load. So you could effectively reduce the wraith cooldown to only 20 hours and not need to worry about the blue energy if other people could attack you and give it to you. Sorry if this sounds long winded and drawn out.

[Amra]

I would like to see the defending be a bit more versatile - meaning that I would like to see troops be assigned, I think it bites currently that it's either an all or nothing type for the troops. Meaning we have good offensive troops and good defensive troops, but if I'm hiding or defending, All troops are committed. Out of my reserves, I'd like the ability to dedicate x number to the wall, and x number hide. That way if a Wraith dragon does swoop in, I don't get knocked back by the number of troops lost.

So far I haven't defended my city - I've been focusing on offensive troops to farm wilderness and camps - in the meantime I keep getting farmed by other players with much larger armies that I wouldn't have a chance to defend anyway.

Should also mention that I'm fairly new at this and haven't had much experience with defending - after the first couple of failures, I pretty much leave my troops in hiding so I can at least do some wilderness and camp farming when I get a chance.

I can't even imagine what it would take to defend against a wraith dragon yet.

In all honesty - I'm somewhat hesitant to use the wraith dragon in fear of retaliation from a larger group or alliance.

Dear Citizens,

Combat is a part of all of our lives in Atlantis, whether against the Anthropus or fellow players. It’s a lot of fun and a huge part of the game to go on the march and attack other player-controlled or computer-controlled forces. The less glamorous part of combat is something that is often fiercely debated on these forums: defending. Since troops in your cities can be set to hide or defend through the Wall, the question of whether or not to actually defend when being attacked is a significant one.

The release of the Wraith Dragon has brought up the question of defending vs. hiding anew, and we at Atlantean headquarters are interested in the way all of you think about defending - when you do it, why you do it, and how the Wraith Dragon has changed the mechanic for you (if at all). So, we’re having this moderated discussion today to see what everyone thinks, and we encourage you all to participate so that the DoA team can get the most complete picture possible of defending in the game.


[SIZE=4]Questions We Want To Hear Your Answer To:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]- In which cases would you defend against an attack? Why?
- In which cases would you hide your troops and not defend? Why?
- Is defending (or not defending) against the Wraith Dragon different from normal defending? Why?[/SIZE]


Discuss away! Don’t forget the rules, though!


[SIZE=3]Rules[/SIZE]
- Stay on topic. Posts that attempt to derail the conversation may be edited or deleted. Bug reports belong in the Bugs & Known Issues forum.
- Be constructive. Posts that express an opinion without actually contributing to the conversation may be edited or deleted, particularly if they are inflammatory.
- Be courteous. Posts that troll, flame, or otherwise demonstrate rude or overly provocative behavior may be edited or deleted.



~The Dragons of Atlantis Team~

[300Spartans]

well here is my thought on the wraith, kabam gave people the power to kill so they can make more money, im a ruby player and work hard on my army then these two 3 mill players hit me with a wraith and i won but i find the wraith kills the most important troop in my army all that was needed was one lj attack and my whole 14 mill power would be wiped clean. what do i get for being an active player and killing these attacks nothing all i get is the most important troop killed, i also have 600 k dragons on my army but none were touched in these attacks just the special troops why dont my dragons fight this. im close to not spending another cent in this game till they fix this cause its a waste of money now these small players have so much power, they send a nice army at me speed a few wraiths in and recall so why defend anymore there is no point, ill just sit there like everyone else and be bored cause its not worth to defend at all anymore untill we have something to defend with, i lost 100k ogs in the attack to a troop that can be recalled and these little power players lose nothing at all.....great job kabam keep up the good work

[Christina Kabam]

Thanks for the comments so far, everybody. It sounds like the Wraith Dragon is not often defended against because it seems a) too powerful in many cases and b) "free" for the attacker while the defender has to lose troops. Chainsaw and roy7roy's ideas about rewards for defending against/killing the Wraith Dragon are really interesting, and I'll be sure the producers look at those.

Yoleinya's thoughts about risk and the perception of risk are also very interesting. I wonder how many people would agree with this assessment?

Another another thought is that people don't defend a lot because there is so much uncertainty in it. I think for a lot of us, the uncertainty is part of the thrill of the battle, but for many, it is okay to take a "risk" when it is extremely slight and in actuality never really happens. People want to win but they don't want to lose, but they want someone to lose, because for you to win, someone else is losing in PvP. It is all fine and well as long as you are not the loser, and when you worry about being the one on the recieving end of it, then suddenly it's, "Wait a minute, this attack is way too difficult to defend. This war stuff is serious. Troops could die!" I like the risk factor. If it isn't risky enough it can become boring; the same little skirmishes, 5k power here and 10k there, and no one really loses anything, but then... no one ever wins either.